Bug reporting: Radar vs Forum?

Question

Jens OP

Created Jul ’15

Replies 6

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This discussion has been up many times, but I'm sure there's room for one more.

EDIT: For clarity, I'll add that I'm mainly talking about Swift bugs here.

There was a thread in the old forums where approximately this question came up:

Why should I file a radar rather than mention the bug in the forums and let Apple file a radar for it if they see it necessary?

(provided I don't mind others seeing any code etc of course)

Here's something that Chris Lattner said in that thread:

FWIW, we do often file bugs for things mentioned in the forums but that do not have a radar associated with them. The reason that we often ask for a radar to be filed is so that we can make sure that *you* get notified when the issue is fixed. Our bugreporter isn't perfect, but it is the only tool we have that handles the book-keeping necessary to inform you when the fix goes out in a build, and we prefer to not leave you all hanging.

That said, if you don't care that much, feel free to say so.

-Chris

So let's assume that I prefer mentioning bugs in the forums over filing radars, and I don't care that much if I get that notification or not (because I will look that up myself, just checking new builds to see if it's still there), then:

I could just use the forums.

(please correct me if I'm wrong).

I think using the forums has several advantages over using Bug Reporter:

1. Before starting a new thread, we can search the forums to see if this particular issue is already being discussed, and if so, we can engage in that discussion, add details, provide smaller/better ways of reproducing the bug, suggest workaround etc.

2. People can "upvote" a bug by doing any of the above or by just saying "please fix this now!". Popular bug-threads probably means critical (or amusing) bugs.

3. Separate but related bug-threads can be identified (by anyone in the forums) and linked. Threads can also be branched.

4. Less clear or otherwise bad bug reports could be critized and people would learn to write better steps to reproduce / demonstration code, not forgetting to provide version info, etc.

5. Crash reports etc may be hard to attach, but I'm mostly focusing on Swift bugs here and in particular those where a short and simple program could be provided that demonstrates the issue. And Bug Reporter will always be there for any bug that isn't suitable for the forums.

Overall, I think using the forums would mean:

Less work, less "closed as duplicate", less suspense, less silence.

More fun, more engagement, more insight, more understanding, more bugfixes, more quality.

What do you think?

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Answer 1

junkpile OP

Jul ’15

I think that comment from Chris Lattner probably only applies to Swift language issues. The Swift team seemed to be quite involved with the developer community, unlike almost all other topics covered in these forums.

Radars are your best (really, only) option IMHO. It's unnecessary work to duplicate others' bug reports and test cases, and it's incredibly frustrating to send them off into a black hole never to be heard from again, but in the cases where Apple staffers have come on here and talked about it, they've been almost unanimous that filing bug reports should be your first thought.

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Answer 2

KMT OP

Jul ’15

While the forums are monitored by various engrs. and staffers, the bug reporting system is the meat on the bones when it comes to tracking, etc. Do both if you like but know that forums posts aren't bug reports, so if you're serious about feedback, use the system and do your part as a member of the dev community at large.

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Answer 3

Jens OP

Jul ’15

Good point. I agree that Chris Lattners comment was probably about Swift bugs and not bugs in general. And as I mentioned in point 5, I'm also talking mainly about Swift bugs here. I edited the top of my post to clarify that.

junkpile wrote:

Radars are your best (really, only) option IMHO. It's unnecessary work to duplicate others' bug reports and test cases, and it's incredibly frustrating to send them off into a black hole never to be heard from again, but in the cases where Apple staffers have come on here and talked about it, they've been almost unanimous that filing bug reports should be your first thought.

But if you read the second comment from Chris Lattner in that old forums thread (I only cited his first comment above), I think it's pretty clear that the reason why people at Apple will generally ask you to file a Radar is to make sure you get notified when/if the bug is fixed.

Here is that second comment, refering back to his first (cited above):

Right, as I mentioned, it is known that radar is "imperfect", and I'm not interested in getting drawn into a discussion about that.

I'm just explaining why folks generally ask you to file a radar for new issues, instead of doing it ourselves. It is also important to know that you don't "have" to do it.

An important distinction is between "not-yet known" bugs and "already known bugs". Filing a radar against something we already know about is generally not helpful to us or you, because it will just get returned as a duplicate without any additional information.

-Chris

I think what he says makes sense (interpreting it the way I do above). And I think using the forums to mention Swift bugs, while leaving the actual filing-of-bugs-into-their-bug-tracking-system up to Apple staffers monitoring the forums, would have the advantages I outlined above.

Are there any particular reason why you think filing a Radar (for Swift bugs) should be our only/best option?

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Answer 4

Jens OP

Jul ’15

Right, I certainly understand the role and necessity of a bug tracking system (the internal one that Apple use, which is supposedly a lot nicer than what we might be lead to believe from having used Bug Reporter, our "interface" to their system).

But what I'm saying here is that I think it would be great if we could just leave the actual filing-of-bugs-into-their-bug-tracking-system up to Apple staffers monitoring the forums (again, this applies mainly to Swift bugs). And as Chris Lattner's two comments above seems to suggest, this is (practically) already the case, ie they do often file bugs for things mentioned in the forums, and the reason why they ask us to file radars is AFAICS only to ensure that we will get notified when "our" bug has been fixed (assuming our bug report didn't turn out to be just-yet-another-duplicate that is ... in which case the result is nothing but unnecessary work for both us and Apple).

It would take no more than one person at Apple to systematically monitor the forums and write bug reports (guaranteed good quality bug reports).

This and the advantages I mentioned in my original post are the reasons why I also think that the forums-way of (Swift) bug reporting would actually allow us to "do our part as members of the dev community at large" much more effectively, both for us and for Apple.

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Answer 5

Jens OP

Jul ’15

Yes, I have seen these explanations before, and many of them doesn't quite make sense to me. I think it would be much easier and effective (on both sides) if it was done the forums-way (for the majority of Swift-bugs that is). I'm sure Apple could afford one person monitoring the Swift forum.

NotMyName wrote:

Posting duplicate bug reports isn't worthless.

And yet, Chris Lattner said: "Filing a radar against something we already know about is generally not helpful to us or you, because it will just get returned as a duplicate without any additional information."

NotMyName wrote:

Posting duplicate bug reports isn't worthless. It provides the engineers with a concrete number "This many people have reported this problem" in case they need to discuss making it a bigger priority.

The current state of affairs means I, and certainly a lot of other developers, simply will not bother to file bugs, at least not every single one, as we just assume somebody else will do it. Thus what you say above isn't necessarily true.

The current system would work if bugs were rare, which they are not, in Swift anyway.

NotMyName wrote:

And most importantly, a forum post that boils down to "I tried to do something, and my app crashed" is the sort of thing that a developer with too little free time writes off as "useless unsubstantiated crash" and moves onto a problem that doesn't involving guessing what's wrong.

As I wrote in the original post, forums advantage number 4:

Less clear or otherwise bad bug "reports" (in the forums) could be criticized and people would learn to write better steps to reproduce / demonstration code, not forgetting to provide version info, etc.

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